Teachings of the Prophet Lorenzo Snow, Chapter 5, The Grand Destiny of the Faithful.


So on we go to Chapter 5 of this years LDS teaching manual. With regards to Lorenzo Snow  this is likely to be the most interesting chapter by far.

This chapter as the title says is talking about the grand hope of those that are truly faithful to God. In Mormon terms this means those that are the most faithful to the Mormon gospel, those that lives out all of the laws and ordnances of the gospel, as the chapter itself says:

…This is the high destiny of the sons of God, they who overcome, who are obedient to His commandments, who purify themselves even as He is pure. They are to become like Him; they will
see Him as He is; they will behold His face and reign with Him in
His glory, becoming like unto Him in every particular. (p.86)

So what is this great destiny? Its perfectly summed up in the first page of this chapter in the phrase that this Prophet is most well known for.

“As man now is, God once was:
“As God now is, man may be.” 

This is very refreshing for me to see this so clearly stated in an  up to date Official Mormon Manual. Last year I had an Evangelical Christian call my points in my article in the Baptist times ”outdated and ill researched” because I used this quote to show the Mormon view in my article. You can see the background to that here. This was largely because this Christian is in contact with a Mormon that, at that time at least did not know, nor believe that this teaching was a teaching of the Mormon Church. I have also had many other Mormons tell me that I am wrong in claiming that this is a teaching of the Mormon Church.

On the other hand there are many Mormons I have been in touch with over the years who very strongly believe that this quote represents their beliefs on this issue well, and therefore will be shaking their head at this Christian and Mormon up to this point.

In this post I am going to look at 3 things.

1, The Mormon Church does teach that God was once a man and that we can become a god ourselves, or “as God is” which is the words used today for the same thing.

2, This is an unbiblical teaching and does in fact point people towards a God that by virtue of being unbiblical therefore does not exist.

3, That Christians should raise this issue again and again with Mormons.

So firstly.

The Mormon Church does teach that God was once a man and that we can become a god ourselves, or ”as God is” which is the words used today for the same thing.

Joseph Smith in his most famous sermon The King Follet Discourse said this:

We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see.

These ideas are incomprehensible to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible.

Joseph Smith the founding Prophet of the Mormon Church clearly taught this very far on in his ministry, in fact just months before his death that God was once a man like us, and dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did.

This leads to different views within the Mormon Church. Some Mormons think God was a sinful finite man like us. This quote and the couplet very strongly lends itself to that. Some Mormons however emphasise the “Same as Jesus Christ did” part and therefore say that Heavenly Father was a Saviour on another world and went through His plan of Salvation like Jesus did, having never been a sinful man. Some others are simply unaware of this whole area of Mormon teaching.

Either way in Mormonism heavenly Father had to go through the same plan of eternal progression that we all have to go through and is the example of the great destiny that is available to all, if they are faithful like He was.

Brigham Young the 2nd Mormon Prophet said:

“It appears ridiculous to the world, under their darkened and erroneous traditions, that God has been once a finite being; and yet we are not in such close communion with him as many have supposed” (Brigham Young, October 8, 1859, Journal of Discourses 7:333).

4th Prophet Wilford Woodruff said:
“GOD IS INCREASING IN KNOWLEDGE. If there was a point where man in his progression could not proceed any further, the very idea would throw a gloom over every intelligent and reflecting mind. God Himself is increasing and progressing in knowledge, power, and dominion, and will do so, worlds without end” (The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, p. 3).

This quote tends not to be believed by Mormons today but this is a teaching of one of their Prophets and shows the idea of this Eternal progression.

Interestingly the 10th Mormon Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith said:
“Where has the Lord ever revealed to us that he is lacking in knowledge? That he is still learning new truth; discovering new laws that are unknown to him? I think this kind of doctrine is very dangerous. I don’t know where the Lord has ever declared such a thing. It is not contained in any revelation that I have read”(Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 1:8).

(As a side note this has happened on a few occasions in that Mormon Prophets say something, then later on their teachings are dismissed or even called heresy. For a more interesting case study on this look up the Adam God Doctrine.)

We also see this from Joseph Fielding Smith.

The Prophet taught that our Father had a Father and so on. Is not this a reasonable thought, especially when we remember that the promises are made to us that we may become like him?”(Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 1:12).

He is likely reffering to this teaching from Joseph Smith

“If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that He had a Father also. Where was there ever a son without a father? And where was there ever a father without first being a son? Whenever did a tree or anything spring into existence without a progenitor? And everything comes in this way. Paul says that which is earthly is in the likeness of that which is heavenly, Hence if Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father also?” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 373.)

According to the Mormon teaching of eternal progression there is a limitless regression of Gods in existence going endlessly back in time and will go endlessly forward, Our Heavenly Father had a Father and His Father had a Father and His Father had a Father and His Father had a Father and I could do that for a thousand pages and still be nowhere near the beginning. This in and of itself proves Mormonism wrong in their claim to believe in an infinite regression of infinite’s, this is logically impossible, for more on this please check out here. 

2nd Mormon Prophet Brigham Young also said:

“How many Gods there are, I do not know, But there never was a time when there were not Gods and worlds, and when men were not passing through the same ordeals that we are passing through. That course has been from all eternity, and it is and will be so to all eternity” (Brigham Young, October 8,1859, Journal of Discourses 7:333).

You may wonder why I keep quoting their prophets as oppose to maybe the Mormon scriptures. In Mormonism the words of their prophets are as significant and authoritative as their scriptures. They speak with the same authority as Isaiah, Jeremiah  and any other Old Testament Prophets. This will become all the more relevant as this post goes on.

The 4th Mormon Prophet Wilfred Woodruff said this:

“I say to Israel, the Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the program. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty. (The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, p. 212-213. See also Doctrine and Covenants Official Declaration—1).

However Mormon Scripture does still very much support everything that is being said here.

“Therefore, I must gather together my people, according to the parable of the wheat and the tares, that the wheat may be secured in the garners to possess eternal life, and be crowned with celestial glory, when I shall come in the kingdom of my Father to reward every man according as his work shall be; While the tares shall be bound in bundles, and their bands made strong, that they may be burned with unquenchable fire” (Doctrine and Covenants 101:65-66).

 20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from aeverlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be bgods, because they have call power, and the angels are subject unto them. (Doctrine and Covenants 132:20)

The Mormon Church claims to be the one Church on the face of the earth that has a Prophet that actually hears directly from God, and therefore teaches with the authority that one would have in this position.

This chapter of the manual also says:

Through a continual course of progression our Heavenly Father
has received exaltation and glory and he points us out the same
path and, inasmuch as he is clothed with power, authority and
glory, he says, “walk ye up and come in possession of the same
glory and happiness that I possess.” (p.85)

So Mormonism at its core teaches this:

“As man now is, God once was:
“As God now is, man may be.” 

Second Point

This is an unbiblical teaching and does in fact point people towards a God that by virtue of being unbiblical therefore does not exist.

(see bottom of page for references)

The God of the Bible.

The Heavenly Father of the Bible is so amazing and outside of human understanding that His actions and judgements alone are beyond us (1).  He does as He pleases (2), He is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we could ask or imagine (3). He has from everlasting to everlasting been God (4). He is so glorious that when He shows mercy on His people, the mercy is primarily to display His own namesake and praise even before it is for the good of the receiver of the mercy (5).  Our Father in heaven draws people to Himself so that they might praise and glorify (6) the God most high (7) the only God that exists (8) the one who knows everything (9) and yet does not know of any other Gods that exist whatsoever. (10) This God exists for Himself and has made us so that we may find no greater joy than what we find in communion with Him (11). It is the fool that says that this God does not exist (12) and He needs nothing from anyone, no one ever taught Him a thing, (13) yet He is able to keep us from falling (25) He does not know and He owes no one anything that He should repay them (14) . This God  is the source of everything that is (13) and exists by virtue of His being (15), that is far above any other being that Has been and ever will be(10).

While we are at it the Jesus of the Bible was equal with His Father before His incarnation (16), He created everything that exists and all of those things exist for Him (17). Being God and being equal with His Father means that He is worthy of worship and also exists for His glory and receives it in abundance from the Father (18), this is so much the case that in honouring Jesus we are honouring the Father at the same time (19). Yet God will not share His glory with another (20). Through this we see that Jesus eternally has been and always will be God in the fullest sense.

He stepped down sacrificing His glorious form to take the form of us (16), sinful people in the flesh. He took the full punishment for the sins of those that would trust Him (21), saving them to the uttermost(22). He built a Church that hell would not be able to overcome (23) that He forever intercedes for(22), and will present to Himself glorious (24) , a people who will forever know where the real success of the Church came from. This Jesus is so glorious that the highest goal and promise to His people is that they might spend eternity with Him(26).

The Holy Ghost of the Bible dwells everywhere(27), and leads people into all truth (28)allowing them through communion with Him to know the truth of Gods word(29). He carries the title of God (30) and therefore is as all sufficient and worthy of all glory and honour as the Father and Son, yet in His submission to the divine economy of the Trinity seeks to point our attention to Christ (31) as Christ  is also subject to the Father.

The Gods of Mormonism

Heavenly Father in Mormonism is subject to the eternal law of eternal progression that all of the other gods are(32). He gives the same laws and ordnances to His people that all other gods do (33) and is unable to create anything out of nothing(34). He was once a man, a finite being (35) and His glory is based on our progression(36). He gives us laws and ordnances to carry out if we are faithful we might become a god like He did(37). He is has a heavenly Father who has a heavenly Father with the cycle infinity occurring (38) He is by no means the only God but rather just our God (38). Our ultimate joy is found in spending eternity with our families(39). He was once just like any other finite being (40) and some Mormon prophets have said He is still learning now(41). This God is unable or unwilling to keep His people from falling and exists due to the process of eternal progression that pre-dates His deity(39). This God is not the God of the Bible and does not exist.

The Jesus of Mormonism being the first born of our Heavenly parents had a status of being a god before coming to the earth (42) but needed to faithfully live out His plan of salvation to receive His exaltation as all of the rest of us do(43), therefore this was not truly a sacrifice for Him but rather a tough promotion process. Jesus as our elder brother is not to be worshipped(44)  and is a separate being to His Father and had to earn His status as fully  exalted and fully a God like we all do(43).

For Him coming to the earth and receiving a body was a step up rather than down as this was necessary to further His progression(43). He takes partial punishment for our sins so that we can be raised after the resurrection but what happens after that depends on our works for Him(45). He was unable to keep a Church together but thankfully Joseph Smith came and did what He could not do, and kept a Church together(46). This Jesus is who people who don’t make the celestial kingdom can expect to get visits from Jesus in the Terrestrial Kingdom(47). Those that progressed further get to spend eternity with their family, which is a bigger blessing than spending it with Jesus(48). This Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible and does not exist.

The Holy Ghost of Mormonism is less known and talked about personally. However He has been selected for the role of the Holy Ghost and one day will have to get a physical body and come to earth for His progression like everyone else(49). He cannot be everywhere at once(50) and in fact leaves whenever contention and sin are present(51). He has the status of God but is not as great as the Father until He one day faithfully lives out His plan of salvation(52). This is not the Holy Ghost of the Bible and does not exist.

Third Point

That Christians should raise this issue again and again with Mormons.

If you have ever tried talking about this issue with Mormon Missionaries you will often get told, “We don’t usually talk about this at this stage”.  They are told to give the milk before the meat. The meat very much being the LDS view of the nature of God as this is so foreign to what Christians believe that they know they will get very few converts if this is shared.

However Jesus said in John 8:24 that “unless you believe I AM HE (referring to Gods name for Himself in Exodus 3:14) you will die in your sins.” The issue of who Christ is, is vital to our salvation and as we understand the greatness of the Father we see how great Christ is in that He had equality with the Father before He came to the earth therefore what He went through was truly a sacrifice. We need to show this vital truth to Mormons so that they can know that Jesus atonement was truly the greatest miracle that has ever occurred and that they can be saved to the uttermost by trusting in this Christ and finally being able to say with Paul:

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

If you know this Jesus you are saved and righteous in the sight of God by putting on the Lord Jesus Christ, not based on works but on Him who calls (Romans 9:12) in knowing the greatness of Christ we can truly know the greatness of salvation. I always say that Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses are actually very consistent as if they believe in a lesser Christ they must believe in a lesser atonement and therefore believe in a lesser salvation where the sacrifice of Christ alone does not by faith save us, but rather by works, which is no salvation.

This short video on a lighter note paints this picture well.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Do you have this grace?

Thanks for reading, as ever please leave comments below.


1, Romans 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

2, Romans 11:33 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

3,  Ephesians 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

4, Psalm 90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

5, Isaiah 48:9-11  For my name’s sake will I defer mine anger, and for my praise will I refrain for thee, that I cut thee not off.10 Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.

6, Jeremiah 13:11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.

7, Genesis 14:20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all

8, Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

9, 1 John 3:20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

10, Isaiah 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

11, Psalm 16:11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

12, Psalm 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

13, Romans 11:34-36  34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? 35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

14, Romans 11:35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

15, John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

16, Philippians 2:5-11  Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

17, Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

18, John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

19, John 5:23  That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

20, Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

21, John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

22, Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

23, Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

24, Ephesians 5:25-27  25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

25, Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

26, Philippians 1:21-23 21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

Also 1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

27, Psalm 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

28, John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

29, John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

30, Acts 5:3-4  But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

31, John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

32, Brigham Young, July 10, 1870, Journal of Discourses 14:71-72 “How many earths are there? I observed this morning that you may take the particles of matter composing this earth, and if they could be enumerated they would only be a beginning to the number of the creations of God; and they are continually coming into existence, and undergoing changes and passing through the same experience that we are passing through. Sin is upon every earth that ever was created, and if it was not so, I would like some philosophers to let us know how people can be exalted to become sons of God, and enjoy a fulness of glory with the Redeemer. Consequently every earth has its redeemer, and every earth has its tempter; and every earth, and the people thereof, in their turn and time, receive all that we receive, and pass through all the ordeals that we are passing through” .

33, Alonzo L. Gaskill, Odds Are, You’re Going to be Exalted, p. 8 “The laws and ordinances by which men and women are exalted in the celestial kingdom of our God are eternal and do not change – and because they are eternal, they predate God. Yes, they have always existed and have ever been in operation. And no, they are not negotiable. All beings are saved on the same principles – by the same laws and ordinances – in all dispensations, on every earth created by the God who ‘upholds all worlds and all things by his power’”.

34 Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 48 “Man and Matter Eternal – Mankind are organized of element designed to endure to all eternity; it never had a beginning and never can have an end. There never was a time when this matter, of which you and I are composed, was not in existence, and there never can be a time when it will pass out of existence; it cannot be annihilated. It is brought together, organized, and capacitated to receive knowledge and intelligence, to be enthroned in glory, to be made angels, Gods-beings who will hold control over the elements, and have power by their word to command the creation and redemption of worlds, or to extinguish suns by their breath, and disorganize worlds, hurling them back into their chaotic state. This is what you and I are created for”.

35, Joseph Smith, King Follet Discourse. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see.

These ideas are incomprehensible to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible.

36, Moses 1:39 For behold, this is my awork and my bglory—to bring to pass the cimmortality and deternal elife of man.

37, Lorenzo Snow “As man now is, God once was:
“As God now is, man may be.”

Also Thomas Monson, “An Invitation to Exaltation,” Ensign (Conference Edition), May 1988, p. 56).“It is the celestial glory which we seek. It is in the presence of God we desire to dwell. It is a forever family in which we want membership. Such blessings must be earned”

38, Orson Hyde, The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 299 “There are Lords many, and Gods many, for they are called Gods to whom the word of God comes, and the word of God comes to all these kings and priests. But to our branch of the kingdom there is but one God, to whom we all owe the most perfect submission and loyalty; yet our God is just as subject to still higher intelligences, as we should be to him”.

39, James E. Faust, “Eternity Lies before Us,” Ensign (Conference Edition), May 1997, p. 19“The Savior’s supernal gift to mankind gave us the opportunity for eternal life, but eternal life without our loved ones would be bleak”.

Also “The family is central to the Creator’s plan,” Ensign, December 2004, p. 51 “‘The fullness of eternal salvation is a family affair,’ said Elder Dallin H. Oaks of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. ‘The gospel plan originated in the council of an eternal family, it is implemented through our earthly families, and has its destiny in our eternal families’”.

40, Brigham Young, October 8, 1859, Journal of Discourses 7:333 “It appears ridiculous to the world, under their darkened and erroneous traditions, that God has been once a finite being; and yet we are not in such close communion with him as many have supposed”.

41, The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, p.3. “GOD IS INCREASING IN KNOWLEDGE. If there was a point where man in his progression could not proceed any further, the very idea would throw a gloom over every intelligent and reflecting mind. God Himself is increasing and progressing in knowledge, power, and dominion, and will do so, worlds without end”

Also Brigham Young, Deseret News, June 18, 1873, p. 309. See also Eugene England, “Perfection and Progression: Two Complimentary ways to talk about God,” BYU Studies, Summer 1989, pg.37 “Now do not lariat the God that I serve and say that he can not learn any more; I do not believe in such a character”.

42, Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 323 “Christ attained Godhood while yet in pre-existence, he too stood as a God to the other spirits, but this relationship was not the same one of personal parenthood that prevailed between the Father and his offspring”.

43  Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 1:33 “CHRIST GAINED FULNESS AFTER RESURRECTION. The Savior did not have a fulness at first, but after he received his body and the resurrection all power was given unto him both in heaven and in earth. Although he was a God, even the Son of God, with power and authority to create this earth and other earths, yet there were some things lacking which he did not receive until after his resurrection. In other words he had not received the fulness until he got a resurrected body, and the same is true with those who through faithfulness become sons of God. Our bodies are essential to the fulness and the continuation of the seeds forever”.

44, Bruce Mcconkie, Our relationship with the Lord 1. We worship the Father and him only and no one else.We do not worship the Son, and we do not worship the Holy Ghost. I know perfectly well what the scriptures say about worshipping Christ and Jehovah, but they are speaking in an entirely different sense—the sense of standing in awe and being reverentially grateful to him who has redeemed us. Worship in the true and saving sense is reserved for God the first, the Creator.

45, Boyd K. Packer, “The Mediator,” Ensign (Conference Edition), May 1977, pp. 54-55. “Let me tell you a story—a parable. There once was a man who wanted something very much. It seemed more important than anything else in his life. In order for him to have his desire, he incurred a great debt. He had been warned about going into that much debt, and particularly about his creditor. But it seemed so important for him to do what he wanted to do and to have what he wanted right now. He was sure he could pay for it later. So he signed a contract. He would pay it off some time along the way. He didn’t worry too much about it, for the due date seemed such a long time away. He had what he wanted now, and that was what seemed important. The creditor was always somewhere in the back of his mind, and he made token payments now and again, thinking somehow that the day of reckoning really would never come. But as it always does, the day came, and the contract fell due. The debt had not been fully paid. His creditor appeared and demanded payment in full. Only then did he realize that his creditor not only had the power to repossess all that he owned, but the power to cast him into prison as well. ‘I cannot pay you, for I have not the power to do so,’ he confessed. ‘Then,’ said the creditor, ‘we will exercise the contract, take your possessions, and you shall go to prison. You agreed to that. It was your choice. You signed the contract, and now it must be enforced.’ ‘Can you not extend the time or forgive the debt?’ the debtor begged. ‘Arrange some way for me to keep what I have and not go to prison. Surely you believe in mercy? Will you not show mercy?’ The creditor replied, ‘Mercy is always so one-sided. It would serve only you. If I show mercy to you, it will leave me unpaid. It is justice I demand. Do you believe in justice?’ ‘I believed in justice when I signed the contract,’ the debtor said. ‘It was on my side then, for I thought it would protect me. I did not need mercy then, nor think I should need it ever. Justice, I thought, would serve both of us equally as well.’ ‘It is justice that demands that you pay the contract or suffer the penalty,’ the creditor replied. ‘That is the law. You have agreed to it and that is the way it must be. Mercy cannot rob justice.’ There they were: One meting out justice, the other pleading for mercy. Neither could prevail except at the expense of the other. ‘If you do not forgive the debt there will be no mercy,’ the debtor pleaded. ‘If I do, there will be no justice,’ was the reply. Both laws, it seemed, could not be served. They are two eternal ideals that appear to contradict one another. Is there no way for justice to be fully served, and mercy also? There is a way! The law of justice can be fully satisfied and mercy can be fully extended—but it takes someone else. And so it happened this time. The debtor had a friend. He came to help. He knew the debtor well. He knew him to be shortsighted. He thought him foolish to have gotten himself into such a predicament. Nevertheless, he wanted to help because he loved him. He stepped between them, faced the creditor, and made this offer. ‘I will pay the debt if you will free the debtor from his contract so that he may keep his possessions and not go to prison.’ As the creditor was pondering the offer, the mediator added, ‘You demanded justice. Though he cannot pay you, I will do so. You will have been justly dealt with and can ask no more. It would not be just.’ And so the creditor agreed. The mediator turned then to the debtor. ‘If I pay your debt, will you accept me as your creditor?’ ‘Oh yes, yes,’ cried the debtor. ‘You save me from prison and show mercy to me.’ ‘Then,’ said the benefactor, ‘you will pay the debt to me and I will set the terms. It will not be easy, but it will be possible. I will provide a way. You need not go to prison.’ And so it was that the creditor was paid in full. He had been justly dealt with. No contract had been broken. The debtor, in turn, had been extended mercy. Both laws stood fulfilled. Because there was a mediator, justice had claimed its full share, and mercy was fully satisfied.”

46, Joseph Smith, History of the Church 6:408-409“I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet”.

47, Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions 1:81 “Those who were honorable men who will be permitted to go to the terrestrial kingdom will be blessed with ministrations from the celestial kingdom. They will be privileged with visitations from Jesus Christ but will be denied the presence of the Father. Thus we learn that our Eternal Father will do all that he can for the inhabitants of the earth according to their works. The inhabitants of the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms will be given a measure of salvation, but not the fulness. They will be redeemed from the power of Satan after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions and have learned to be obedient to divine law”.

48, “The family is central to the Creator’s plan,” Ensign, December 2004, p. 51 “‘The fullness of eternal salvation is a family affair,’ said Elder Dallin H. Oaks of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. ‘The gospel plan originated in the council of an eternal family, it is implemented through our earthly families, and has its destiny in our eternal families’”.

49, Joseph Smith, Encyclopedia of Joseph Smith’s Teachings, edited by Larry E. Dahl and Donald Q. Cannon (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1997)“The Holy Ghost is yet a spiritual body and is waiting to take to himself a body, as the Savior did.”

50, Joseph F. Smith, Discourses on the Holy Ghost, N.B. Lundwall, ed., p. 53 “The Holy Ghost as a personage of Spirit can no more be omnipresent in person than can the Father or the Son, but by his intelligence, his knowledge, his power and influence, over and through the laws of nature, he is and can be omnipresent throughout all the works of God”.

51, LDS.org If we argue and quarrel, the Holy Ghost leaves. Although arguing with a husband, a child, or a brother or sister may not be a serious sin, it does drive the Holy Ghost away.

52, Joseph Smith, The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 245; Sabbath address, Nauvoo, 27 August 1843. Reported by Franklin D. Richards. ”The Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has.”

Tagged as: , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,

12 Responses »

  1. Wow Bobby. That is a really clear, well-sourced comparison of the Biblical standpoint as opposed to the LDS one. Best thing I’ve read explaining these differences in ages. You were being led by the Spirit there I would say. Praise Him!

  2. Great stuff Steve appreciated, looking forward to meeting you soon :)

  3. You’re welcome Bobby. Amlooking forward to it too. Another thought just occured to me regarding ‘The Mediator’ “parable” by Boyd K Packer: It appears very Christian on the surface until you realise that the benefactor is just a new creditor! How is the benefactor actually doing good on the part of the debtor if he is just throwing him back into a system of trying to pay off a debt that he cannot pay? It also suggests that the Father is the bad guy, with Jesus is saving the debtor from the bad guy! You have to read between the lines with Mormon theology!!!

  4. Zion and Jerusalem, March 5, 2013

    Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible.

    (Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 29:6)

    Dear Booby and all those to whom it may concern.

    I am grateful to have the opportunity to say a few words with regards to this article. I like it. I like it a lot. It has a lot of borrowed truth in it and that is always acceptable to me. Especially the main subject at hand that God was what man is and that man may become as God is. It is the truth and all things have a type and a shadow of things that are, that were and as they are to come. I am here only comparing spiritual things to temporal ones.

    Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible.

    Teachings of the Prophet Lorenzo Snow, Chapter 5, The Grand Destiny of the Faithful.
    Posted on March 2, 2013 by Bobby

    • Thanks Miguel, and my name is BOBBY haha,

      I have checked your post and I can only say I agree with you, please people reading this compare the two sides to this discussion.

      • Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the LORD, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us? Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter’s clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

        (Old Testament | Isaiah 29:15 – 16)

  5. Miguel, I clicked on the link you provided and saw, amongst other things, a lot of name-calling and finger-pointing directed at Bobby. Here are some examples:-

    “But you Bobby, ignorantly talking about things that you do not know chose to follow the council of the Devil ”

    “stop feeding from the dust that the devil gives you”

    “He knows the truth as much as Satan”

    I am very concerned by this tone. Firstly, you are putting yourself in a position of judgement regarding Bobby, by claiming that he is talking about things he does not know. You are free to disagree with him, but I think you should stick to the perceived flaws in his argument instead of just saying that he doesn’t know what he is talking about. Of more concern however, is that you are claiming that he is following ‘dust’ and ‘council’ from the Devil. Having read Bobby’s post, his argument is put across relying fully on the Bible to back up all of his claims. Are you really trying to imply, as a follower of Christ, that the Bible contains the council of the Devil, or should be called ‘dust’ from the Devil?

    Miguel, you then go on to say:
    ” you Bobby, know about GOD but do not know him unless you do what he did every wit. And that is being Christ like”

    You are setting a high standard here Miguel. Are you living up to this standard? Do you do everything that God does?? I doubt it. No human has or ever will fulfil the law, that is why Christ has done it for us. It is more important to live by this: “if anyone loves God, this one is known by Him” – (1 Corinthians 8:3) Are you known by God?

    Let’s get back to Bobby’s post. It is challenging the LDS teaching that God was once a man and that we can become gods, using Biblical teaching to prove that this is not the case, and using plenty of LDS quotes to prove that LDS beliefs and practices contradict the Biblical view. Has he presented the differences between the LDS view and the Biblical view clearly and fairly or not?

    • http://thevoiceofthewise.blogspot.com/2013/03/verily-verily-i-say-unto-thee-we-speak.html

      Zion and Jerusalem, March 7, 2013

      Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

      (New Testament | John 3:11)

      Here is evidence that the word of God or all scripture is good or profitable for reproof, for correction and for instruction in righteousness.

      All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

      (New Testament | 2 Timothy 3:16 – 17)

      Certain man named SteveL said to me in response to a post I published in response to another post written by Bobby Gilpin


  1. Teachings of the prophet Lorenzo Snow, Chap 6, Becoming Perfect | Mormonism Investigated UK
  2. Lorenzo Snow Manual Chapter 6, by Mike Thomas. | UK Partnerships for Christ
  3. General Conference, April 2013 Saturday Morning Review. | Mormonism Investigated UK

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s


Get every new post delivered to your Inbox.

Join 125 other followers

%d bloggers like this: